Joshua Rose editor of American Art Collector, Fine Art Collector, Western Art Collector and Native American Magazine discuss how as a student in Wales he became entranced with art studying 18th century English poet and artist William Blake before returning to Phoenix to start his own magazine Shade. Josh shares the inner workings of the magazine he publishes and how he sees the art world growing in the future. This episode is sponsored by Medicine Man Gallery and The Charles Bloom Murder Mystery Series.
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Joshua Rose editor of American Art Collector, Fine Art Collector, Western Art Collector and Native American Magazine discuss how as a student in Wales he became entranced with art studying 18th century English poet and artist William Blake before returning to Phoenix to start his own magazine Shade. Josh shares the inner workings of the magazine he publishes and how he sees the art world growing in the future. This episode is sponsored by Medicine Man Gallery and The Charles Bloom Murder Mystery Series.
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The art dealer diaries are brought to you by medicine men gallery located in Tucson, Arizona for over 26 years. Medicine Man Gallery is known for their antique native American art their, early Western and, contemporary art as well as contemporary abstract art, so they basically have it all. If you like that kind of material, then you will love Medicine Man Gallery and you can see everything on their website medicinemangallery.com. There's over 7,000 objects that use for and you can just buy them right off the web. Also, you might enjoy the Charles Bloom murder mystery series. It's based on the art world and there's some pretty interesting things that are going to hear in these books that are available on audible kindle as well as Amazon or you can just call medicine man gallery or go to the website and order them. If you're ever wondered what really happened in the art world, read the Charles blue murder mystery series. Josh Rose dropped by today and I mean literally dropped by. I pulled him out of a show to come and give us a little insight into what it's like to be an editor for three, actually four major magazines, American fine art, western art collector, American art collector, and Native American art magazine, and Josh gives us an insight to not only what it's like to be an editor, but how you get on a cover if you're an artist and really what his world entails. So if you're an artist or an art gallery, this one you will want to hear.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming. Yeah, it is. Morning, right? I'm here with Joshua Rose, who is the editor of many magazines, including one. I brought it, I'll tell you, American fine art and my favorite courses, the American or the western art collector. He also does American art collector and of course native American magazine. So pretty busy guy, aren't you? Pretty busy. So yeah. Right now you're doing this show, right? You're.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I'm here for the great southwest antique show down in Albuquerque, which is a beautiful show. And last night I went to the gala for the millicent Rogers Museum. It was a great event. Yeah, it's a real. It's at a Montay. The grotto and a nice turn out and they did. They did really well.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For those who don't know, the millicent Rogers and museum that's in Taos and it's got one of the greatest collections of Maria and Tony Days that you'll ever see. The family gave it to him and it's really, to me, it's worth always worth the effort to go up to the house and see it. It's on the north side I guess at Taos, but yeah, I love that place. Yeah, it's great, but I couldn't have done a gala night trying to get the podcast ready. We're in Santa Fe doing this podcast instead of Tucson. I got to come up here to capture all the interesting people that come through this town and there's a bunch of us a lot and I grabbed josh his arm and out of a booth. Yes. They say you've got to come onto my podcasts and so here he is. Woke up this and towels and
Speaker 2:did that beautiful drive back and then just every. It never gets old. Looking over and seeing the gorge as you around that one corner. It's just gorgeous. It's got a lot of questions for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Ready. All right. So I just Kinda, you know, I've known you for 10 years at least. Right. So how long are the magazines had been going on? You've been the editor for how long?
Speaker 2:Okay. We started America collector first. That was, so, that was about 13 years ago and we saw the need for that style magazine for that market and uh, and then we learned about the western market and, and started that about two years later. And then we uh, started American find out about six years ago and then native art, but two and a half years ago at indeed during Indian market. That's when the, when it came to me.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to get to that, but I want to know how. So about 11 years ago, more or less. So I've known you for at least a decade. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I never have gotten to get the back story and so I want to get the back story and everybody else's. So where'd you grow up?
Speaker 2:I grew up in a while. I was born in DC. My father was an attorney in the Justice Department in DC. And
Speaker 1:so what do you think about this stuff that's going on right now with the Justice Department that's pretty high powered professional. Your father had
Speaker 2:eat? Well, he. So he, uh, he was in the antitrust division and uh, so the first year the Asu law school opened up, uh, they asked him to be a professor, so he moved out to tempe and 1968. I was a year, year and a half old and he joined the faculty at Yale Law School. And so I grew up right there, right around Asu, right around the law school doing all that. And yeah,
Speaker 1:I didn't get any answer what you think is going on, but you don't have to keep it apolitical. So you grew up in, in Tempe? Tempe, Arizona. I didn't know that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I grew up in Tempe and uh, my father, he supposedly retired about five years ago. So he was at the law school for 45 years. And did he teach contracts? Antitrust, legal ethics, and now he's writing books. And so did he know James Bilac? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the whole, the whole crew. He was there. Yeah. I think the second year in law school opened his. When He.
Speaker 1:Wow. So Jane Bilac for those guys who don't know, so out there, he's a wonderful collector of native American paintings mainly. And he donated his entire collection to the University of Oklahoma at Odu. And you can go see that collection. So amazing collection. And so your dad writes books. What kind of books is he reading now?
Speaker 2:He's. So he, he, he, he was always contracts antitrust. That was his basic, his area. And then about, I got to about 15, 20 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, he decided he got interested in English, legal history, English legal history, medieval English, legal history. So he, so he taught himself, paleography started learning. I'm reading a class of medieval Latin and French, uh, documents. And then he just wrote a book on, on, uh, some aspect of English legal history for Cambridge University. So very technical. And do you know about that? So you must know a lot about the law if you grow up as a kid of a professor in law, you know a lot about the law, don't you? Yeah. Uh, you know, and I have an older brother who he's an attorney as well and I thought about that field for a moment and I, before I actually a mutual friend of ours, I before I went to Grad school, I went to Grad school and we'll talk about that later. But I interned at a brown and vain and I was like, do I go to law school? Do I studied literature for my, what do I do? And the lawyers just pulled me in there often say that was at Brown and bay and you know, with Suzanne and Jack and all them. So, uh, yeah. So I, I took the other route. So when you're growing up as kid and Arizona, because that's really. So you look at Arizona is really as your home. Yeah. Yeah. And then both my parents are from Minnesota so we'd go there every summer and that's where their families, they're from. See my grandparents and so that's a Norwegian a. where are they from? Exactly? From St Paul. So that's all Norwegians stuff, right? Yeah. Well my dad was German and my mom's family rose Russian. Cool. And so as a kid growing up, did you have an interest in, you must have, you said you were interested in literature, but did you have a great interest in writing and reading and that kind of thing? Oh yeah. Yeah. Both my parents are both English majors, they're academics. They always pushed it and always talked about it. My Dad loves poplar and that crossed over and, and uh, my grandfather went to a little bit after him, but he went to the same private school that f Scott Fitzgerald went to. So it was in St Paul Academy in Saint Paul, Minnesota. So, uh, and it, was he your grandfather who was also from that area? From my. Yeah. And uh, so they always had us read and talk to us about reading and I loved history and the American revolution and civil war. And so it was always something that. So history is important to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which makes sense. Now in college I studied literature and now I can't read fiction. I don't know why. So everything I read except the blue murder mystery series. So that's seven books. I've read fiction I read and I used to read everything and now it's just, I love nonfiction. You know, artist biographies. Do you think it's not so much that you don't read it because you don't like it, but it's a time issue and you have so many other things to know? I don't know, I just think there's so much stuff I'm still trying to absorb that I decided, you know, it'd be better to learn stuff things and I think I always, I always had a love for, for literature that's, that was always my first love. That's how I got into art. But right now it's a lot of nonfiction. So you're reading artists by biography, biography and things. I love things like, you know, a New York in the thirties and you know, it talks about the artists and who was around at what time and what they're doing, you know, I love, I love those kinds of books. Have you read anything interesting of lightning can recall? Um, I've been reading a lot of Joan didion lately, decided she's one of the best writers of our generation. I just can't get enough of her prose. She's a beautiful writer. And do you spend a lot of time writing? Not as well, that's kind of a tragedy for me is that I got into two magazines because I love to write and that's all I used to do. But now as the editor you do everything but. Right. So every month I'll grab a couple of stories. I will tell my team don't touch these, these are mine, but I'm writing them, have come to the here. So I try, I still try. Sometimes I ended up getting a little too crazy and then I have to hand them off, but I still tried to do. You've written some articles for some shows that we've done. Oh yeah, I'll definitely that writing this one. Well I left to right and you know, and you want it's, you know, it's like everything else is. That's where the passion kind of starts and that's where it kind of got it all going. So you're growing up in Tempe, right? Yeah. And you go to Tempe. What's the high school? They focus. Marco's been nice. And so what kind of kid were you? You're a writer. Band. Maybe I was a wreck. Well, my older brother, my older brother, I don't know if you've met him. He's, he is all state football player. Really? Like the whole thing. Oh that's so hard to follow. So it, you know. So he uh, so I played, I played sports, I love football, I love, I love baseball. So you play both sports and I played in high school, I played baseball growing up. I played football in high school and then I think my sophomore year I said, you know, I was like on the school newspaper, on the yearbook and I got an opportunity to be the sports editor. So I decided, I don't know if I'd use it as an out or whatever. I said okay, I can't play anymore and now I'm going to write. So I started writing then and I was pretty quiet until it was about 15 and then I kinda, you know, blossomed out and, and uh, and um, you know, so I started writing, then join the newspaper and then just kept going. And then, so my father, I don't know if you've ever met him, Doug Lock, he was a, he lived in tempe and he was a law student. He's an attorney now and he worked in the athletic department and the media relations department at Asu and so he was a student, my dad. So I said, well have josh come over? I was like maybe 13. And he said, have him come over the baseball games, baseball games and he can help out in the press box. So I went to junior high about a Maga hat from the Asu Baseball Stadium and sound ride my bike after the game to the Bait, Asu baseball games. And I get them all drinks and hang out and listen to them. I will tell their stories and all that, not a ride home. And he'd stop at the law school and my dad and I would ride our bikes back home, uh, you know, not every night, but, you know, probably three times a week. And then about two years later I was about 15, the Tempe Daily News at the time said, well, why don't you just start writing about the game was. So I was starting out as a correspondent and I started writing like regular sports stories in the newspaper.
Speaker 1:So at 13 is when you first went and watched these games in the. Yeah, yeah. And were you kind of absorb what with what was going on with, from the writer's standpoint?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, I loved it. And I, I, I, I think I spent every waking moment from about six to 13 reading the backs of baseball cards. That was my first love. So, you know, go in there and seeing it and talk, you know, seeing these guys write about it. And that's when they first, they would just, you know, go to the office after the game and write the story. Then they start mirroring those giant that was like a telecomm. And you put the phone on top of it with trail. So I did actually. Yeah, I've seen them in movies. Yeah. Yeah. So that may start, started having those and uh, you know, just the whole thing and then just going to writing about it. And I was 15. I'd go down and interview the player.
Speaker 1:And so that's when you, they said why don't you write about it and what kind of players were these?
Speaker 2:The Aa aaa kind of star Asu, the college. Literally. It's like very, very bonds of that era and stuff. So they had to do interview Barry Bonds. I never did. I saw him many times but, and you know, and I just ended it. I think that my dad, I think when I was about eighth grade, he's the one who kind of saw my kind of love for writing and Kinda Kinda steered me towards journalism and you know, that's kind of how it all.
Speaker 1:And so you got out of the sports, you started writing for the yearbook?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I swat them. I think my junior year, my senior year I became the editor of the whole magazine. And really, you know, then, you know, just was taken by it, by it all. So you go to Asu, is that where you went to knowledge? So I. God you didn't. Okay, good. I got into University of Minnesota first, right. That was bold and go for it. And that's what. And um, my dad went to University of Pennsylvania and my brother went there. Um, my, our family is from Minnesota though and they, and I was at the start, I was doing journalism. That was my idea, didn't less longs and Minnesota had a great, you know, a lot of those big 10 schools have really good journalism department. So I went to Minnesota and uh, and did journalism that lasted about a year and I just, I didn't want to take classes on writing leads or any I wanted to read. And so I became a literature and philosophy major. And then that's what I finished up on literature and philosophy. Yeah. Okay. So you finished that. And what year is that? Let's see. I graduated from high school in[inaudible] 85. I finished Minnesota 89 and then I, I took a year to kind of figure out in, in Minnesota was amazing. I, you know, I'd always knew my grandparents because we'd go back there every summer. It's kind of your second home. Really? Yeah. And, but then to be able to see them and as an more of an adult and you know, borrow friends' cars and drive and see my and take them and go see our, our aunts and uncles and you know, it's just a really. It was really a beautiful opportunity for me to kind of get to know them a little older.
Speaker 1:Right. And this year, so you've taken you, you've got your degree in philosophy, which we know that that's a really value and literature I meant. So I came back home to, to, to, to Arizona, Arizona and I worked at Brown and Bain and I thought, you know, what am I going to do next? And that's the law and the law firm and where you like clerking kind of stuff. They caught a document that was back on days when they actually had documents and so they just have these stacks of documents and you have to go through them and organize a. it's absolutely crazy. And uh, and did your dad at that point go, yeah, I love the Sun because you're. Yeah,
Speaker 2:yeah, he, he, he kind of, he, he, he never really, you know, after that original, he'd never really put his, just said, you know, do, do what you love. But the beauty of that was jack, you know, Suzanne Brown Gallery, so I was working in the galleries and there'd be head males on the wall and you know, all of those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there were floor cover to cover, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. I had all down the hall. So I talked to Howard posts last week and he was telling me exactly about that, that he would, you know, Suzanne hadn't made a sale, that she would get her husband to go buy an ed mel or Howard posts or Merrill Mahaffey, you know, because she wanted sales to happen now they just keep paying it at higher and higher. And Howard had no idea this until he showed up for a party one time and solve their pain. So you were a surrounded at that time by those guys on the walls
Speaker 2:and uh, you know, it's funny because I'm eds and now one of my closest friends and I didn't know him at the time, but, you know, I think there was one right in front of me
Speaker 1:when you actually recognize the art you saw. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. Because not all young kids do. You're like 22.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, so my, I get go back a little bit. So my, my, I'm graduated from college. Literally the damn graduating, turning in the paper and I see. And my junior year of college I went and did like a, well actually going back even further when I was in third grade and my dad went on a. I took a sabbatical for a year and we lived in Southampton and he taught at the university there and I went to third grade in England. And so, you know, it was always there. And we, and he, he, you know, he's very, he likes to see everything. So we went to every church, every cathedral, every Algebra you're getting exposed to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of. And, and I, and it always stuck with me. And then, so, um, my, my junior year I did a semester abroad and I went, I lived in, it was called literature in London through the University of Minnesota. So I went London, lived there and then afterwards traveled around Europe and then, so at a time, so as I'm walking down the hall is literally to graduate, uh, from Minnesota. There's a, I see this poster on the wall and it says Study Literature in Wales and um, you know, being the romantic that I was still having my thought that's what I'm going to do. And so I came back home, got a job at a law firm, literally the day I got back a eight to five saved up money. And um, there was a school, it was called the University College in North Wales. And I loved when Blake's, my guy, so, um, they, they had, uh, William Blake experts. So I thought I'm going to go to Wales and Steady William Blake North Wales and study poetry by William Blake for a year. And my parents were like, well, what are you gonna do with that? I'm like, I don't know. But. And then my dad said, well, you know, my dad said, I'll pay half. And so you take care of the rest. And um, I don't know how I still thinking about this. The other day they had a, I don't, I got the American student loan department to recognize it and in the school wrote a letter. So they actually, I got to a credit graduate school loan for it, you know. And uh, I remember, um, my dad was on the phone with our, some relatives. They said, well Josh thinks he's gone to Wales, but until that check shows up, I don't know, maybe like two days before I get this check from the student loan department, you know,$10,000 away. And he said, okay, that's good. And I went, so, and you got to go study portrait. Yeah. So I lived in north Wales, Bangor, or they say, Bang, Bang. So I lived in Wales for a year, studied, I did my master's thesis there with them, was out on William Blake, who was on William Poetry, have poetry and art. See that's the thing. So Blake was a poet when he was an artist and he did, he wrote these beautiful poems and illustrated them all with these incredible visionary drawing. So I would, and you know, the English, uh, uh, you know, academic system is different. I never, I didn't really have classes. It's just like I'd go meet with this expert on William Blake and you'd say, okay, read this and this and this and this and this and this and come back, write these articles. Come back. So you're just immersed in that one subject. Do you have any poetry you remember from Blake? I love like lines more. Yeah. Every, everything that, everything that lives in whole material, a little bit of everything that lives as holy. That was blake side. I love that line. I think that's perfect. Yeah, he's amazing. So it really that, that really stuck with you and his not only his poetry but the paintings as well. And here's what I think, what is amazing about Blake and I think it translate to art, is that he created this in I think all great artists do this. He created this vision and then he almost created a, became a part of that vision. It's almost like he's a character in his own, this own world, the whole world that he created. And I think all great artists, you know, you know, do that. They become kind of a persona and their own kind of work within their own world. And his was a visionary and an internal world of poetry and art. And when did he live and die? A 17, 57 to I think 18, 24. So it was right. There was a lot going on. It was right before the Romantics. But he, but they loved him. I'm a wordsworth and Coleridge. They love Blake because he, you know, he never left London. He lived in this tiny apartment with his wife the entire time and he was just. The people would come to the door and he'd be covered in printers, ink. I mean he just. And he did so much and so he was kind of an, had been forgotten it. So he was rediscovered by them. Then you rediscovered later by William Butler yeats and, and, you know, then he kinda stuck and it wasn't until like, I think 2000 maybe that the, uh, the tape did this huge William bike exhibition of his art or I remember that actually. Yeah. Did you go to it a, no. By then, by the time the exhibition had already left artery higher, already graduated and moved back. But uh, it was right right when it happened. So, so you spent a whole year learning about blake and it also got you your master's as well? Yeah. Yeah. What was that? A master's. A in English literature and English literature. So now those are two really good fields, philosophy and English literature and you know, like it's. And now just like you said it now, it's like now it feels like, I think what's that my life because north Wales it's beautiful. And um, and uh, it's right on the coast. And so you crossed this beautiful. It's called the midnight bridge across this beautiful bridge and then you're an angle c and angle c is the island where you leave if you take the, if you take the ferry to Dublin, but it's also the last strong hold of the, of the druids. So it's this tiny little island. So I had this little 10 speed bike I bought the first week I was there and I would ride across this bridge and then I'd ride through this island and, and literally, you know, you see these fields and um, there'd be like a miniature stonehenge to rocks and, you know, set up in the, in some farmer's field. There's, that had been there for a thousand years years and it was just there. And then we were smart enough to recognize what that was at that point. Yeah. And I would, you know, these rides and uh, you know, I just, I loved it and it was on the very few not rainy days and there'll be no lamb running through the lamb or, you know, run the field. And, and these. And one time there was this, they said, oh, there's this. Um, there's this, uh, I'm very celtic burial ground or something and, and you know, you have, you know, it's something you have to see. So I wrote those, bring Kathleen do and are through the q and r Ddu but it's pronounced th and, and so I'm like, okay, I'm going to go there, so I go there and um, I, so if I finally see the sign for it and it's literally in someone's backyard and so, you know, there's a woman in the window, you know, the farmhouse and then I had to like wait until the cows are gone. And I walked out and it was a burial ground, you know, like a mound with a little door in it. And, and I was watching, there's a show called destination unknown on travel channel. It's that Josh Gates guy and I was watching it and I totally forgot about this, but it's completely forgot. And uh, I was watching it like a month ago and he went there. I was like, oh my God, that was the place you went to as. Yeah. As a kid. Yeah. And did you relate to that with native American art growing up in Arizona and had you seen Chaco or gone in one of those places? Oh yeah. Yeah, we went, we did, we hit all the spots. My, um, my father was, my parents were very involved in like the, like the uh, um, uh, the farm workers movement. And so there was a, I didn't know this, but they told me there was a period and when I was in preschool, what I went to a Yaki Mexican English speaking preschool. So, you know, so it was always, I remember one time we were driving and Cesar Chavez got gotten our car and like we took them somewhere as you know. So my dad was, my dad was really involved in all that. And, and, uh, and you think being exposed to those mounds and those things related in a way when you started getting into native American art because you have a native American art magazine, have you ever considered that as being part of it or not? I think so. And just the and just that, you know, being around it and seeing it and seeing art and poetry and reading it and you know, and just kind of taking it all in, you know, and just kind of opening up to it. And you know, living in Phoenix when you live in Phoenix, when back in the seventies when people come to town, you took them to the heard museum. That's what you did when your relatives came. That ended up. That was the older part, you know, just the, the old building and you know, that's new. And I went to grade school in Tempe and we take two field trips a year and it was always to a public ground day. That was the one because it was right by the school. The buses could get there. It was like easy to go, you know, like the annual field trip to pebble grounded. So you know, growing up you're just, you're, you're exposed, you're supposed to use it. And was there something in the herd that you remember or still like to go to? Because some of that stuff's like the Kachinas are still there. The cucina collection that, that, those always got me and, and you know, hope he has his hope. He has a special place in my heart. It's just such a beautiful culture and a wonderful place. And you know, being from Arizona, you don't, you know, you, it's almost like you don't realize that's part of Arizona. It's like wait the oldest continually inhabited villages in the country or are here in our home state. You just go up and they're all there and you can see them and know it ain't even really thinks about it or you know, and it's all there. It's all there. And then. So a few Arizona and so that sometimes they don't even know it's right in their backyard. Yeah. Right, right. And you go there and it's all, you know. And my friend Owen, a certain gene who you, I know, you know the jeweler and he's, he's half and half Navajo and he's been really generous taking me up there and his family still lives on first Mesa and going to their house and you know, seeing it, seeing it changes your viewpoint when you see it from that aspect really does, it really does. And you know, he first time we went up there, he took me everywhere we went to a pasture canyon and the dinosaur tracks and the, your bottle of water so you can see the dinosaur tracks, newspaper rock and the river and you know, Coal Mine Canyon and King's Canyon and you know, went and we went and visited at West Willie, the jeweler. And he lived. He lived up in a jetted do that Jeddah dough and it went up to see him. So we drove through and stopped at schemes and, and then uh, uh, he's good friends with a son was. So we stopped at hope villa and saw her place. And you know, it's just, I've never been to a dance. That's my goal. I'd love to see that be divided now, but just being up there and eat it all,
Speaker 1:you could just show up and go and really if you go and look at it, you know, I have all these things with Maynard Dixon, you'd see all the imagery. He lived there for four months while I was involved with the dances and things, but they've had to close it and rightly so because it's, you know, it's there sir world and it's not ours and we have to respect that, but you can't get in but you need to have a friend and they to really
Speaker 2:sponsor you well and then you know, at, you know, become becoming really good friends with Ed and hearing his hope he experienced and that's how he started driving his motorcycle through those canyons and you stopped one day at night and said this is what I'm going to do. This is it. And he taught there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Turning point for red mill is what he's told me is when you know he's in New York and being very effective and a great illustrator is doing national lampoon covers and things like that. And then he gets an invitation to go teach summer school and Hopi and he's from Arizona, just like yourself. He comes back and he is just so effected by the surroundings and the people he goes, yeah, I think I get to leave, need New York and get back to Arizona. He does. So I mean, I mean, it affected you, affected him. It affects a lot of, a lot of people. But I want to go back a little bit just because I want to find out. So you're in, you're in England, right? And were you, did you ever consider staying? I mean, a year there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I looked at some other programs now your English literature. I looked at some other programs and thought about staying and um, and uh, you know, I don't know. I, I finished my masters, I remember telling my professor I'm going to finish it, you know, by September he said there's no way you're going to do that. And I ended up doing it and part of the, the masters there, so smaller papers and then a larger, like 75 page thesis, which I still have that no one reads, but it's on my bookshelf. And so, um, yeah, I guess I just, uh, you know, when you're, when you're from, when you're living outside of the states, you really get, you really get a intense affinity for it and uh, you know, you get homesick and you miss things and it started dating someone right before I left. And so I was like, you're missing the girl, you're missing the Mexican food, Mexican food in Arizona missing, you know, and, and reading, you know, reading faulkner and all those things and it makes you want to get home. So I think I was ready. So you came back and then came back. So I came back and um, it was like 1991, middle of the, you know, a, a recession. The recession was my gallery in[inaudible] 92. So yeah, I want to just hit it at the worst time. So you come back. I was like, Hey, I have a masters in poetry, poetry, she was going to hire me. And so, um, uh, of course, no one did. So, uh, and then I moved in with the person I was dating and we ended up getting pregnant and having a baby and all that. And then, so, um, I started working for a credit card company and then I was writing on the side. So do you remember Java magazine? And so Robert Centenary. So he was a friend. So he, he hired me and I, some of my first articles we're writing for him, uh, for those magazines I read the, one of the best things I've ever written, um, I'll have to dig it out for you where it was, uh, um, my girlfriend at the time who was, ended up being my wife for 14 years, uh, her dad lived in, in Nogales. Well, he was from, he'd go down in the galaxy. It was from Mexico. And so he said there's still both fighting in Mexican Nogales. So what you're saying? He said, yeah, there's a ring and everything. So, um, her and I, and Robert who owns Java and another Jim Cherry decided to drive down there and watch these bull fights. I think they're over like over Easter and I'm write about to write about it. So I said, I said, Robert, well, you know, I'm driving, you know, we have gas if a hotel, I think I got paid$25 to write this story, maybe 50, I think it was 50. I said, you know, can I get a little bit more money? He said, okay, I'll give you$25 more a week. Okay. So, um, and there was a Tucson and you probably know him. There was a guy from Tucson who went down and document, did all these, all this photography of all the bull fights. I don't know that but, but we may know the artists but I don't know, silly went down there and watch the bull fight. There's a ring in Nogales and they bring the, they have kind of a circuit. They brought these real bullfighters from Mexico and Columbia and it was like the real thing. So that. Yeah. So that was like my, what was that like? It was incredible. It was amazing. It was father, you just see the bulb and kill the final part is pretty disturbing. I would think it was. Yeah. I had never seen one before. The best thing ever written about bullfighting is, is in the Barnes wrote a book called the plume serpent and it's kind of his falling in love and then falling out of love with the kind of people of that area and it's just so brutal and a disturbing that the first scene in that book where he talks about going to bullfighting and watching it. And um, and I think I definitely connected to that. I mean that is as brutal as you can go. Oh my God, I love animals and that, you know, and to see it against speech and then the b saw and, and usually, oh yeah. And that and the bullfighter uh, what's called El Milagro because he fell from this bell tower in his hometown and survive. So they caught him the miracle and so, and he was incredibly good looking and flashy and had the whole suit on. And it was towards the end and he was, it was wrapping up and the ball almost got, he almost died. They had a boat almost got him. So even at that minute, you know, at the very end when you think the bowls tired, nothing's going to happen. One false move and you're done for it. Yeah. And he and he had to roll. They roll. So you like rolled out of the way. But yeah, it was pretty. But it was a event. So there's like the orchestra, Mexican orchestra in the, in the stands. And you can only buy two tickets, shady or sunny. So he sombra. So you totally went with the sunny because it's cheaper. Yeah, of course. I think it was like a dollar and, and uh, yeah. So that was one of my first writing experience. I knew like what came out of that I liked, I liked that kind of writing. I like being able to just, you know, writing about experience, observing, observing, feeling you can set the setting was a lot easier probably for you too. Well, especially in that. I mean, the sweat the beers take taste everything out. And I interviewed the bullfighters, my wife, my first wife, we were married 15 years. She's such a beautiful woman. And, and um, so I was trying to interview the bull fighter and she was translating because she's from there, Marcio from incent aura, her family was. And so she would ask, I would ask her that, ask these questions and she translated it into Spanish and then the bullfighter just couldn't say, you are so beautiful. What is your day? I mean, that's not the answer to the question. You're going the wrong direction. So, you know, so, you know, those early, that early writing. And then I started teaching, um, esl English as a second language. I had like 50 jobs, I was working constantly and uh, and then I just kept writing and uh, and I thought, okay, and this is nonfiction writing. This is more in the vein of the job thing. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is like 90 dash one. Would that be like 92, 93 around there? And uh, um, and then that then buy. And then I started, oh, and then, um, so I thought, okay, so, you know, someday I'm gonna find something, you know, that I really love. And, and, uh, I thought, you know, I have a master's I could teach and I thought, and then I thought, okay, well, you know, I work at the credit card company for about three years and then I got hired by Phoenix College to teach English one, a one and one or two and those kinds of classes. So these all part time, you know, how they do it, that I loved it. I was like 23 and they're like, are you sure that your teacher, the students are like eight days. So I was like, but it was just a, it's a neat school and it was just a great experience. I really loved it and I always love to teach. I love know that thing you get with three students in that connection. And, and then I thought, okay, well this is what I want to do. And so I quit the credit card company and my parents said, are you crazy? You get. I'm like, okay. And I sent him and, and you know, no one will give you experience, no you can't, no one will hire you. They want experience. So I thought, well, who is going to start a school, how are they going to start a school and make me a teacher, you know, and the art institute of Phoenix opened up just at that time in 1986 and, and I, and they hired me to be the first full time teacher and the art institute of Phoenix and that was like 96, 97 and I taught English and humanities and art history and just, you know, how long did you do that? I did that for about nine years. What was your favorite course when you're teaching a world world literature, world literature. I taught Dante and the Odyssey and the Iliad. And those are kept learning at that point too because we're teaching. It's, you know, you learn a lot. You have to think about it. I have to think. Yeah. And you know, my grandfather, my grandfather went to Yale, he graduated and he went for two years until his, uh, his father passed away. And He loved Virgil and he used to quote the need to me. So as you come really from a long pedigree of reading, writing literature. Yeah. And then you teach, you teach for nine years. I taught for and, but, but in that, so around 1996. Do you remember get out magazine? It was the East Valley Tribunes Week. It was the Arizona public did the rep and the and East valley attributed to get out. And it was the Friday supplement, arts and cultural supplement. And so like 96, 19, 96, I called the get get out, the editor just harder. And I said, hey, you know, I want to write. Do you have anyone doing, I'm doing book reviews. He said, no, we don't do book reviews, but do you know about art? I'm like, uh, yeah, sure. I know about art. I just studied away, have blank for a year and had never written about art before and I, um, and I just fell in love with it. And I wrote their weekly, our column and art stories, every art story for about three years or so when you cover the museum, seeing the gallery scene and that kind of stuff. Yeah. I cover all the gallery shows and some of the, you know, and uh, the museums and the cowboy artists. It's funny. This was in the mid to late 1,996 to about 90 to about 2000. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you recover the Phoenix Art Museum, cowboy artists of America show. Right.
Speaker 2:And I had no idea that time and I was actually, this is a funny story. I had no idea in that time that be back involved in that I didn't even know I had grown up around it. I had seen it, but I, you know, I was young and thought everything should be contemporary and was not a fan. And I told so, um, in April the cowboy artists of America invited me on their annual trail ride and I told them and I told them the story. And so, you know, I was 23 years old. I thought I knew everyone. Everything I guess. And, and thought everything should be contemporary and modern and, and so, um, but I'd always had affinity for real, a start. I'd always loved it. So they said, okay, you got to cover this, you know, cowboy artists show. And I, and I said, oh, what's, you know, what his cowboy art, I don't know what it is, are you kidding me? And so they sent me up to um, uh, to care free. And they said, okay, there's artists, go talk to this artist. I'm like, alright, so I go up to this beautiful house. I drive up there, beautiful house race Swanson and he lets me and, and, um, and I ended up staying in a studio for about three hours, which was filled with great native American art, native art all over the walls. And he was literally the nicest and most compassionate, like generous person I've ever met. His wife met me at the door and let me in and showed me to the studio and he and I and I left her like, who the hell do you think you are like, are you kidding me? And it really changed my views to like not, you know, never to assume or think anything.
Speaker 1:So you're questioning yourself, not raised Swanson, who am I to make decision that was wonderful,
Speaker 2:beautiful human being who is dedicated to his life to this profession and doing this wonderful work. And it really opened my eyes up to western art too. And that was Kinda my first experience with it. And it really stuck. And you know, unfortunately he passed away before, um, you know, we started western art collective, but as
Speaker 1:he would have been a wonderful cover. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. But I've told that story to Martin Greeley. I told it to all of them and they, they, they got a kick out of it. But it's, it's true. That's how it all
Speaker 1:it is. I think, you know, art, if you bond to an artist and people don't realize this too sometimes, but an artist should know this. But if you make that connection with an artist, it's more than just the artwork. You have that connection mentally to who that human being is. And it can change and affect the way you see everything. And it did in her case was very swanson because he had a wonderful human being, a great artists, but by his personality coming forward that allowed you to enter his world. And once you were entered in to that, then you said, okay, let me see more. Right, right. And it could have been just the opposite too if he, if he hadn't been individually, you go,
Speaker 2:oh my God. Like I like the sky now I really hate is art as like a restaurant, you know, if the servers are terrible, doesn't matter how good the food is. That's true. Right, right. And if you, if there's an artist that you don't like that you are, you biased painting, then you meet them. You're like, I don't want to hear this in my house. It's true. You know, that's happened to. No, I can't really can't. So you. So you start writing for this magazine, for the, for the, for their, like weekly newspaper. And it was good for me because it got me on deadlines and writing quickly and know that. And uh, and I still talk, I still a top full time, so I was teaching at the art institute than doing this on the side and uh, but, uh, you know, and, but I've met every, I met all the little car, this was early days of Phoenix art scene, not early, early like crash arts, but like Mars art space and all those. I've met all those early, you know guys and, and um, and you know, saw this shows and got to know the art scene and I thought I kind of gathered all this knowledge and then, and then in about[inaudible] 99, the newspaper said, well, we're not going to cover art anymore. Like, are you kidding me? They're like, yeah, you know, we're kind of, we just don't think it's a good idea. So whatever, you know. And. Yeah. And so I started writing and did the magazine last that much longer, much longer. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. When you start cutting out the arts and the arts and they don't realize it. But yeah, it affects, it affects it. And they, um, so I started writing for the new times and so it was writing a weekly art column for about a year and a half and I wrote on the boarding school show when it first opened up the heard museum. I still think that's one of the most, you know, my favorite pieces that I've written. Um, and appropriate. You reviewed my book, which is on the Indian school days. That's what I was thinking. They connected me to that. Yeah, it's, those are great books too. I really love how you weave in history and it's, you know, it's like reading nonfiction fiction, but then you get, I tried to put some history there so you understand that you come away with more than just a go. That was a great story. I didn't know that stuff as well. Yeah, they're great books and I still don't know when you write you must never sleep. It's amazing. Seriously what you do. And uh, so I started writing for the new times and like the new times, that's always ends up being a disaster because of their disaster. And so I did that for about a year and a half and then I, um, I started writing national things. Wow. So, oh, and I'm, I, I wrote about Fritz shoulder back then when I was writing, I wouldn't, she, he showed it a veneer gallery. And did you get to meet for us? I met him once. Yeah, yeah. And as an interviewer or just as bad just as an interview. And what was that like, you know, incredible. Such a character. And so it's such a unique personality. And in what way would you say to that? What was his personality like? Well, this one, it was, it was, it was later on in his career and it was when he's doing those huge paintings of vampires on the dark, serious. And so he, um, had, uh, the gallery owner myself and to unveil this painting. Any, any like went to the put Kurt put, put it behind curtains and it was literally like a year. It is. Gallery. Was that, that was, um, it was a chairman and veneer, but it was before vineyard galleries. It was when it was, I forget what it was on Marshall, way, like right next, just north of where Lisa said he was, you know, when you walk in Wild Meyer, I forget which one, that
Speaker 1:cash. It was joint dash. And did you open end? Did they open that just for you in this moment or was it for you and the gallery and the gallery owner? Yeah. Yeah. And it was one of those big black van park. Huge. And what was the gallerists response? Seems a little ticket back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was,
Speaker 2:it was joint cash gallery. Yeah. And then, um, the other person I interviewed was um, oh gosh. And I can't think of her name, but she's a real photo realists from New York City. She came down and did an interview and stuff like that. And I'm like, I know I love meeting people. I love it. It's the best part of my job. And so just the characters and the personalities and the art field and that, you know, when we started were a contractor, you know, jumping ahead real quick, everyone's sort of like, well, you know, in, in native, even native and finer, like why are you covering the market? Like, you know, that's the most exciting part. It's the dealers and the personalities and the friends and the auctioneer, you know, that's what's fun. The market is exciting, you know, it's a whole ball wax.
Speaker 1:Yes, the business part. You as well as the art scene because that's all part of it. All of it. And you're very good about covering that. You get good information on auctions and how they're doing in galleries and artists and latest things. You've covered this podcast actually,
Speaker 2:but people want to know those collectors want to fit in. Being tuned all that. And your website's good too, I would think. And it's getting better. That's a new new plug where they started a redesign, but give us a website, tell us what it is. Well, what, we literally just signed the contract last week, but we're going to do all sorts of things or dealers or will put their entire inventory and all of those. So it's going to be really.
Speaker 1:And will that be under Western art collector? All of them. So each magazine will have their own url that would go to the including
Speaker 2:native and then the ads will be up on the website. So mark said, but here's your medicine men gallery and there'll be a little camera icon underneath there. So say you do an advertisement for Josh Elliott show. They'll say there are 20 more show paintings in this show and we send, the dealers will send you kind of like a, like a, um, like a dashboard so you can go in and upload the whole painting so people can click on your ad in the magazine and then see the entire show and inquire about it, you know.
Speaker 1:And do you find that the artists and the galleries are asking for this kind of stuff? Are you giving him stuff? You know, they're going to want to drink. He
Speaker 2:posts. Say Somebody told him, you know, hey, you need to go digital, do digital. And they're like, well, what is digital? So we're just trying to like, okay, here's a package that will involve digital that then you don't have to worry about it
Speaker 1:because don't you find, at least I do to some extent that galleries and artists seem to be a little bit technical, technologically challenged. Yes, definitely good at creating. But when it comes to the component and trying to figure out how to get their artwork out there a little bit, um, under knowing, oh definitely without a doubt. And I'm not all of them. There's some out there. I know you guys are going, I'm not,
Speaker 2:you know, in galleries usually have, it's the person's whose name is above the door and they're going to be out doing what they do best and talking to clients, showing them new paintings, building those relationships, you know, you know, work in those areas. So sometimes the website or digital and you know, I personally, I understand the need for digital and I see it and, but I, you know, I love discovery. I wrote about this the other day and one of my, one of my editor's letters, you know, highlight. Okay, it's noon, I have three hours, I'm going to go wander around down Canyon road and then you walk in and that sense of discovery and I think collectors still like that and you know, walk into a gallery and see, oh, who's the siren? It's, I've never seen this before. What's the,
Speaker 1:well, you've been doing this now for over a decade. Do you find when you go into those places now they recognize you, they know who you are? Yeah. Yeah. Is that, is that good or bad? Because you can, it takes a little bit of the discovery away if they're fawning over you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well I think the, what is the best part about it is, is just showing me stuff. Oh, we got this artist so we don't need to see and you know, things like that and that, that never gets old, you know, I think that's still a main part of it. And then go into the back room and digging through stuff and finding these artists and dealers are great. They're so enthusiastic about the artists that they represent and in the new work and finding these new artists in the first place, even though it really is, you know, uh, you know, these artists, you know, artists are selling at these shows and um, and then you know, and then the collectors know him through these shows, but what they are a lot of people don't realize is that no, to get into this shows your gallery, you know, the gallery found you and then they got you to that, you know, then you got to that level. Then you started showing what these museum shows and then,
Speaker 1:and so for you to find potential artists that you want to feature in your magazines and there's a four of them really relies on you to some extent still going to galleries, looking, seeing, and exploring and finding. Is that right? Yep.
Speaker 2:Totally. Without a doubt. And, and, and, and just being like, I like this work and I want to show it the magazine and you know, and I still get submissions and the, and if I like it, if someone sends me the images and the images I like, I'm going to, yeah, I'll do it, you know, I'm always looking for new things. Always kind of.
Speaker 1:And how do you. I've always wondered how this works and you can share what you can or not, but how does somebody get on the cover of a magazine? How do you figure that out sometime?
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's like timing, you know, maybe we'll do a wildlife issue and we have a great wildlife painting but sometimes I try, you know, it's just like what is the most beautiful image we could find at this moment. Then maybe there's a great snow skiing but it's not but it's summer so it was, oh maybe that won't work. But. So a lot of it is timing but some of it is just like an image that like just like. And is that a group kind of discussion between your editors and your cell phone or. I'll sit down with my graphic designers and, and um, come and I'll pick and say, okay, I'll say, okay, this image, this image is, so maybe we'll mock up like five or six and then we'll all sit around and look and then we'll call up all the other assistant editors and say, Hey, come check these out and we'll talk about them. And then, you know,
Speaker 1:do you have a favorite, let's say for Western art collector, is there one that you'd go, oh my God, that just really sticks out. I know that's hard and putting it down on the spot, but that's what we do on the art dealer diaries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure so many. Um, or how about one other? There's one poster, so we, we make giant posters of, of, of the, the covers and there's one western art collector poster that hangs in my office and it's the Ed mill one where it's a bucking bronco, but it's done almost like duchamp. So there's like five different stages of him. Oh yeah. I remember that. I think you had the painting I did serious yet. And that, you know, beyond belief. That's great, Josh, you know, Josh Elliot does wonderful paintings that they're just so picturesque, they just make for such beautiful
Speaker 1:ones I thought was very interesting that you use the way that you actually use the swore to go through the lettering. Yeah. Which was different and unique and I thought wow, it really popped and um, you know, it was important for me. I, you know, when I look at anything, a magazine, whatever, my books aren't any other books you're drawn in and if you don't have a good cover, yeah, it can be a problem and you always seem to really think about that and come up with that right thing. And in a lot of it also with this American fine art magazine is seeing those works of those early guy like nc Wyeth, like that's him right there. He's got his family because he just knew they were early illustrators and they knew how to tell a story and like that one image. So ncy if continually blows us away on every occasion. Dixon's not bad, just a graph. I mean, so many magazines covers in his day. Oh my gosh. He just, yeah, he knew how to, how to, you know, just I'm going to jump ahead to the native American magazine because you've kind of taken that whole field by storm and that's only been two and a half years.
Speaker 2:Well, I was honest about that. Okay. So I, um, I've always had a passion for native art and when I, when we did Western art collector, this is 2008, we came to Indian market and we'd come and do cover the, the native art show for an Indian for Western collector. And I'd always wrote about native artists and put them in the magazine. I heard Christy was to write a column for me every, you know, every other issue on contemporary and historic native art and in the Western art collector. And so we're always coming to market for that. And the first year I came was 2008 and down maybe one best of show and you know, down became the director of Indian market. Uh, he, he, he, his tenure ended this year, but he was, he was the director for the last four years and uh, he was a law student at Asu and so I met him. He's like, I just want to show and tell your dad I'm going to be late for class. So, you know, we connected early on, you know, in one of my first visits and I got to meet, you know, and actually going back. Oh, okay. Well there's another part I haven't told, but um, so after doing the new times and deciding that was just not fun. I started writing for local newspaper. I started writing for national magazines. So I wrote for Art News. I wrote for Art Forum. Um, I interviewed James Turrell for art for and wrote an article about you get to meet him and talk to him. I did, I did. And one of the highlights of my art career. Um, so I, after I start writing for Art News, art forum, and then I started my own magazine and Phoenix and it's called shade and it was art literature, film, you know, what you name it, architecture. And it's beautiful and if you go to downtown art studios, people still have it on their shelves. And, and so, um, after about the first issue, um, for some reason, you know, how these cities do these press tours. So Pittsburgh called and said, oh, we have this press tour, can you come and do this, press two of Pittsburgh and they take you to the war on museum. And one of the places they took it to was the mattress factory. So it's really cool art space. It's in an old abandoned mattress factory. And they had just installed a James Turrell sky space who is a land artists for those who don't know, I'm doing an amazing thing in Arizona as well. And he's from up in the crater and he was there. And so part of the. So they had this incredible opening night that lasted 24 hours and part of it was going into the, it was one of the sky spaces that's outside of the museum. So we all, like 50 people went into the sky space with him, with James Turrell at about five, four in the morning, you know, half hour before sunset. And he narrated the process like, okay, go outside, take a look, look at the sky, okay, come back in and look up, see what you see. And like talked us through it. And that was like, yeah, that was incredible. Yeah, it was amazing. I haven't seen him since I was like 2002. So still making our yeah. And then a lot more expensive. I should've got something back then. And um, so I started my own magazine called shade and we did it for three years and it was amazing and I met Steve Jase was a Navajo artist and we became really good friends and at the time he did mirror the murals that used to be in the, in the first floor of the herd. He did all those. So I'd go down to the studio and watch him paint and I wrote, he, I put him on the cover and then he introduced me to doug miles, Apache skateboards, and this was like 2000, 2001. And I met Doug. Will you like hit it off right away? I actually put a, I went out to my fit, my partner and I went out, drove out to the petro reservation, uh, and met Doug and watch them skateboard and he took all these beautiful photos. We did this whole article on it and we put one of those on the cover back then. So I'd always known doug and all that things. And then the first time I came to um, to uh, Santa Fe Indian market, 2008, we reconnected and he introduced me to his, uh, his daughter and to his friends and to Melissa cody who's in a textile artists, amazing textile artists. And then to a Thomas[inaudible]. Marcus is a phoenix artists from uh, um, from the pima salt river and human. I became really good friends. So I'd always say. So you had a natural affinity, you knew the people I knew. I liked it. And you had been around it? Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in Arizona and I grew up in Arizona and then um, I was here so I would always come out. We gave, we'd give a Western art collector award to a native artists. I'd come to the best of show. I'd walk around. I met, met even more people and then, um, I was out in 2014 and we were at Garcia from green gallery. Said, Hey, do you know the magazine? American Indian art? I'm like, yeah, of course I'm, oh, and there's. And there's whole thing I haven't told. So, um, um, he said they're there, they're not going out of business. So had just decided to close their doors. She got tired of doing. You got tired of it and I think it was not even tired of doing it, which is a lot of work. She did it all by herself is a great magazine, but there's a time and she didn't want to sell it because she just wanted to end going out on a high note. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so, uh, so he, uh, so I called my boss, I'm like, we're doing this, but we're doing historic and contemporary, this contemporary world, native art world is going on. It's about to just explode. He's like, okay. And he lives in Australia. So like I said, trust me, this is going to happen. And three months later we had the first magazine. That was beautiful. And that was 2015. 16. Yeah. Yeah. So the very first year, uh, so we've, we've been in existence for three years and two of them we've been the official magazine for the Santa Fe Indian market, including this year for 2016. Yeah. Yeah. But what, what I did what we talking about my grandfather and St Paul. So my, my great, great grandfather came over from Germany and went through New Orleans and up to St Paul and they became for traders. So they refer traders in, in St Paul, Minnesota
Speaker 1:and May I know mine. What's mine? Where do builds up like. Oh really? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Took the first wagon train across the Oregon trail. Really? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And they were like 18, 18, 80, 18, 90. So, and my grandfather loved all that. We'll love to have that. And so we, you know, my parents have some things still, you know, that they had traded for, for so they have some beautiful. They have but they have a Jew boy bandolier bag. They have a jacket and you also grew up with it. And my grandfather. But my grandfather loved a ernest Thomas Thompson seat. Um, of his books. He left will james, he, you know, he loved, he used to tell us words ensue. And a lot of times when I, when I'm at these having these great moments and you know, and meeting these people and going to these beautiful places. I know Mike, it's him. I know it's him, it's all you know. And then he, he was a great storyteller and he tells us all these wonderful stories about hunting and fishing and St Paul and the, you know, the forties and fifties. So a lot of it, you know, a lot of it. Definitely.
Speaker 1:And would you say that magazine is the most successful? At least from just pure advertising is so big. It's just shocked every time I say it
Speaker 2:it, it's, it's doing incredibly well and it's, it's the only one out there. And I think that we're passionate about it and we love it and I think people are responding to that and we're in, we're, you know, we're keeping it affordable for people. It's
Speaker 1:every, every other month. Right. And you can get it either and in bookstores or magazine place where you can get a subscription, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Can, you know, it's funny when I said we're doing historic and contemporary, that's how, that's what we're going to do. We're doing native art. We're going to do both. And you know better than most people. Those worlds don't really, Jeanette, it's not as much an intersect as you would think of Ip. So, um, but it's working and it's managing to work and um, and I think dealers love it. The artists love it. People are, you know, I was talking to people at the antique show and they're like, you know, it just, it just makes the whole market look like it's thriving and happening. And, and you know, and you know, when, when I started they said, okay, you know, American Indian art was a great magazine but it was kind of preaching to the choir, you need to, you okay, this is your job, Josh, go out there and you'd have to find these new collectors. And I, and I've took that on pretty, you know, that responsibility. And I go, you know, like, you know, getting more people involved and in making the magazine. My thing is I don't want it to be academic, I want it to be accessible and I take a lot of heat from that. Why aren't you publishing these 12 page articles with tons of foot notes? And I'm like, well, you know, people, dealers like the same people like those. But readers want to read accessible things where they can correct things that like you do, like this is how do you, this is how to start collecting Navajo and this is how political pottery. And so, um, I don't think, I think we're, they're informative and they're interesting and they're, they're definitely a written from an authoritative perspective and we have the, you know, people that know their stuff writing, but they're just not pedantic are kind of over the top when it comes to the academic. But it's good information because you want to, you know, a lot of those articles. Even though I specialize in native American art, sometimes I'd find him so dry. It's hard to read one. They're just so narrow. It's like, you know, possible bags from 1830 to 18, 79, 18, 32 from this one region of the, you know, and so, which is fine if you're into those. But I do like the fact that that magazine covers a variety of material, all native American types, a lot of contemporary as well and gets people involved. I think you can learn a lot. I and I read those. Oh, that's very interesting and it's been neat. It's been neat to see. It's one of those things that just kinda comes together. Like I'll say, let's do a, you know, let's do an article. Let's still whole section. We've been doing those special sections that usually consists of about five to eight articles about that topic. Like jewelry, right? Yeah, let's do pueblo pottery and then someone will call me. Oh I just wrote a book on public pottery with Katie. Do you want to use an excerpt? But like, so it's just coming together so nicely and perfectly and my designer I think did a wonderful job putting it all together. It just looks good. It looks sharp and it. And it's good information. Even in this new issue we did the Indian market issue and it's the Indian market magazine. So I thought okay, do we just have a bunch of features? No, like let's, let's like what to collectors need that's going to help them buy at Indian market. So we, we did a guide for every category, you know, who's hot, who's emerging, who are kind of the classic standard bearers of that, that field, and then we will call it all the dealers. Hey, so tell us about, give us some pointers on collecting jewelry on collecting powdery and collecting a bead work. And so all the[inaudible], all that information in that guide is like good stuff. That and then here a bunch of artists doing that style and I think it has to be accessible and it has to be useful. And that's, that's my goal. I mean a lot of people, it seems like a lot of magazines, especially even art magazines are struggling, but that doesn't seem to be the case for all your formats. But worth, we're thriving. I think. And it's funny because, um, you know, people hear these buzzwords and they think they have to do it and then they try it and then they. But they always come back. And I was talking to a, a big auction company in New York City more that does more print. And about two years ago they said, this is for American fine art because that's historic American painting. And they said, we're not going to do in print anymore. We're doing all, we're going to go digital, we're going to do this and this and this. So he calls me three weeks ago. He's like, we're doing print again, you know, and people do like prep therapeutic play. And I think everything that's good comes back. I have two kids at 24 and 17. They listened to vinyl and they take film, photography, film photography. And I think now that listening to this podcast, I hopefully, and uh, you know, I think people love. And then I went to the La print fair or la art book fair for several years. And you go there and there's people doing scenes and selling little handmade books and all those things. And it's, you know, there is people love print and I don't think it will ever know. It's obviously had enough. Digital has had an effect on newsmagazine.
Speaker 1:Right? So you add the websites, you add the content that way, but you also have print. And then do you find, it seems like there's a change when I look at the magazines, all magazines that are art magazines, there's less galleries advertising and there's more artists auctions in shows. Was that a, is that a true statement or is it just me?
Speaker 2:I, I think that that has been the case definitely. And I, I don't know why, you know, I always, I love the support from everyone, but it's really, it means a lot to me when galleries are doing it and in there, but I have noticed, especially American art collector deals with more of kind of the gallery that you'll find on canyon road or main street or in Tucson or in Jackson hole and Bozeman and those places and a lot of those galleries who have been on the fence kind of for maybe the last three or four years. I'm finding them come back and literally like right as we speak, like the last two months, all these galleries that I haven't heard from in a long time are like. And I don't know if it's just because the economy is better and people are selling are, but they're like, okay, we're doing these shows, you know, and it just seemed
Speaker 1:it does work. I can tell you as a gallerist that print ads do work, if you get the right magazine. For me it's usually western art collector and native American art and those do work. I get sales, I get people who read them. So those people who are out there listening to this go ahead. So I know it'll be reasonable rates and get to work with a wonderful person, which is the editor, Josh. Yeah. Just so it's just so fun to have gotten to spend a little time and kind of know who you are and where you come from. I'll never look at English literature or poetry or William Blake, William Blake. But again, now that I. I know where your roots come from
Speaker 2:and I've interviewed you so many times. I'm going down to your gallery and setting up and talking about rugs and you know what? What you do is amazing. Seriously. And I'm not just saying that because I've talked to many people about this, like doing the gallery, the podcast, the videos, I'll say like, hey mark, we're doing an article on collecting jewelry or Navajo rugs or public pottery or Maynard Dixon and a week later you've written a 2000 word article about him. Like so and then novels and novels on top of it, seven novels. I mean I want to write one.
Speaker 1:Hey, you can do written seven novels are fun there for me and for the people who enjoy those stories and the other stuff to get the word out just like this podcast. This is too, is fun for me because I get to learn about people and we'll learn about our industry and hopefully leave some kind of record for those who follow a go, oh wow. I had no idea that's where this began or this is how it is. And I hope more dealers do those kinds of things. That takes up a little bit of effort, but I do it because I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fun. Well, and it's the and it's just making it happen. Like, here we are, it's Sunday morning, you got up at it, you know, you could have been sitting, looking at having a nice coffee, but here we are much more fun and just being able to make it happen like that. It's amazing. And it's, you know, I think it really benefits everyone and all the characters and the artists and the people in the industry. You know, I know this, I know we did our, you mentioned we did article on the podcast but I've been hearing people talking about it and there's, it's, it's, it's like the native magazine. It's the only one. You're the only person really doing it and I think that's, it takes time,
Speaker 1:effort and, and you want to have to do it. And I, you know, I enjoy doing this as much as I do actually selling art or even looking at art to some extent. There's a different form, a, everybody has something to bring to the table that I didn't know about and boy, it just gives you a bigger insight into the, you know, I'll never look at you quite the same as I did before because I know your backstory and now everyone who listens to it does too, and they're all gonna say, Oh, Minneapolis, sorry,
Speaker 2:come on, sorry about that. You know, but, you know, those are beautiful moments and the native magazines. So we do, um, uh, you know, we do all four and it's, it's amazing just to go from, you know, the, all the different worlds associated with each magazine, but the native magazines is. Give us some magazines one more time before we close this up so they know what they are. American art collector was the first, and that's kind of, I would call contemporary realism, you know, living artists, doing painting and mainly a representational way. But you know, we stray a bit too. Um, uh, and then western art collector, historic American, historic and contemporary Western art. And by Western we know it's also wildlife and landscapes and supporting art. And all that and galleries, auctions, events, you know, those kinds of things. And then American fine art, classic American painting. Homer hopper is sergeant o'keefe towels, founders Dixon Dixon, of course. Yeah. And that's like seven early golden age illustrators, mainly 1750 to 1950 for American fine art and the native art historical, contemporary native art. And it's like I said, the native art magazine. It's been such a joy to put together. I love the historic dealers. I love seeing the things they were able to find and come together and the contemporary artists just meeting. And I'm the only recent people come to Indian market, the reason the 80,000 people come their beards because or more are more you buy from directly from the artist you, they're there, right. They're selling their own work and being willing to connect with them on that level. And the, the, the, the warmth, the friendliness and the personalities. It's just, it's, you know, and the creativity and, and you know, we're used to paintings and sculpture now you see jewelry and pottery and the whole gamut. Beadwork it's incredible. Yeah. So now that you have it, those are the magazines. Go out and subscribe. Thank you so much josh, for his great. Yeah, and now I'll let you get back to work. He's got to run back and man a booth to in albuquerque and thank you for coming in. My pleasure. Thank you for having me and thank you for doing this. It's definitely needed, but man, it's funny.